N is for Nepotism

Obama gave a historic speech last week, the first time since MLK that a leader spoke to the American people about race as if we are adults. What was most remarkable about the speech was not its eloquence but its honesty. Obama dared to speak openly of things we only whisper about to trusted friends; or just think about, not daring to put words to the thought.

Racism is an  original sin of America. Yet we avoided many other sins that have plagued other nations. Our founding fathers created a Republic, not a Monarchy. It sounds  natural in 2008, but back in 1783 it was unique. It was the accepted view that the son and occasionally daughter or wife of a ruler was entitled to continue on the throne.

George Washington could very well have become monarch of America, as Napoleon declared himself Emperor of France a few decades later. By returning to his Virginia farm and not letting his family continue his legacy, Washington set the tone for the future of the country.

Are dynasties inherently bad?  Shouldn't the experience of a family member of a President help in being ready on Day One at 3am? Actually no. History tell us that kind of thinking leads to disaster.

We can look at our own history. The two Presidents who succeeded their father-John Quincy Adams and George W. Bush- were haunted by the shadow of the greater man. At least JQA had the common sense to quit after a first term and build  an honorable career as a Congressman. GWB tried to prove that he could complete his father's aborted (in his view) war in Iraq and led the country into disaster.

But we can look around the world. It is usually corrupt third world dictators who groom their wives and children  to succeed them. Assad of Syria, Peron of Argentina, Sukarno of Indonesia... the dangers  of nepotism  are so obvious.

Nepotism sets up the wrong incentives for Government officials. Loyalty trumps competence. The Bush administration is an obvious example. Rumsfeld was kept on after he screwed up royally because Bush prized  loyalty. Not to the country, but to the Bush family. Lower level officials take their cue from what is going on at the top: did "Helluva job Brownie" get his job for his competence?

So let us speak of what cannot speak. Nepotism is the  reason Hillary Clinton became a leading candidate for the Presidency. Only because of the connections built up during Bill Clinton's term in office. The Clintons expect personal loyalty to them from the people Bill appointed to Government positions. Most recently President Clinton asked  Bill Richardson was asked "Aren't two cabinet positions enough?". His toadie Carville called Bill Richardson a Judas, especially provocative on Easter Sunday.

This sense of entitlement is dangerous to the nation. It  is evil. It corrupts the Government. It insults the good people who served their country honorably, whose loyalty is to the country and not its temporary rulers. We have a President not a Caesar.

But it is also stupid politics. People who get to positions through nepotism appoint others out of personal loyalty and not competence. That is why Hillary Clinton hired and could not fire the incompetent manager who almost bankrupted her campaign. And when she finally did replace her, it was by another family retainee, who has bankrupted the campaign a second time in two months. This is why she pays Mark Penn 2.7 million dollars of her supporter's money for two months' work. And Harry Wolfson, the Three Diamond Whore  of politics, $1350 per hour. In spite of their colossal incompetence.

Nepotism is what Hillary Clinton's campaign is about. That alone is a reason to oppose her. Let us have a clean sweep. A fresh start for the Democratic Party and the Country.

Obama, Richardson, Pelosi, McCaskell, Webb, Warner, Patrick,Paterson... we have so many excellent leaders in the Democratic Party. We do not need to follow the Republicans and have our list of Presidents read Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton. Let a new flock of leaders come in and move us out of the nineteen nineties fully into the new century.

For that matter, if Obama were to win the nomination and the Presidency, we shouldn't want Michelle Obama to succeed him as President. It didn't work for the Kennedys, it has been a disaster with Bush, and it will be a disaster if we go with Hilary Clinon.


Poll
Are you in favor of Nepotism in Government?
Yes
No

Votes: 13
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Tips, Flames, Recommendations n/t (2.00 / 1)


by LibDem on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:46:53 PM EST

Re: Tips, Flames, Recommendations n/t (2.00 / 3)

You need to read Bill Clinton's speech on race for the advent of The Million Man March. It was a fantastic speech and he certainly spoke to us, as he always does, as if we were adults. I'm not impressed with Obama's writing or thinking, but certainly Clinton's speech is as good as anything Obama ever cooked up.

http://www.afn.org/~dks/race/clinton-e6. html

And i recall Jesse Jackson giving some superb speeches on race and class in the eighties.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:53:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Bill Clinton's speech (none / 0)

I read it. I heard it at the time. It is a fine speech. No one remembers it. He was a fine leader for the nineties. Time to move on.


by LibDem on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:03:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Bill Clinton's speech (2.00 / 1)

Naughty, naughty - your claim is that obama gave the first speech that talked to us about race as if we were adults since MLK. I'm just pointing out that's not an accurate statement. There have been several such speeches, most prominently among them Bill Clinton's. And, of course, you have no idea if Obama's will stick either and you won't know for several more years. I'm going to remember it as the "throw Mama from the Train" speech, as it was so dubbed here, and that will be my primary memory of it - oh that, and being the moron that Obama is, he compared Ferraro's comment to Wright's comments, and then had John Kerry say the same thing on his behalf that Ferraro had. That was pretty funny.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:24:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (1.50 / 2)

Honesty?

Is that when he said he was giving the speech to cover his butt?

Or when he said his grandmother a "typical white woman" was a racist?


by DTaylor on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:48:50 PM EST

Nepotism didn't get him where he is (none / 0)


by LibDem on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:49:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nepotism didn't get him where he is (none / 0)

His brother Emil Jones got him where he is...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/wo rld/us_and_americas/us_elections/article 3602710.ece


by DTaylor on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:52:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

So he brought his grandmother into the speech about how his racist pastor is someone he can't disown to call her a non racist?

Team Obama for the FAIL


by DTaylor on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:13:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Look past her last name (2.00 / 4)

and see that she's the best candidate. That's what I did. Her last name definitely counted against her in my book, but she had enough positives that made her my top choice. By far.


by catfish1 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:53:25 PM EST

Do you think she has managed her campaign well? (none / 0)

Do you know where your contributions are going?


by LibDem on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:55:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes and yes. (2.00 / 3)

When I imagine each as president, she is the one I prefer.


by catfish1 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:09:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

This is a great post. Funny enough I was thinking the same thing today. Nepotism is terrible, it makes us look like a banana republic. I mean go to anyone of these countries and you see families ruling countries. I don't want to see that here. Next stop is maybe a monarchy. That is what we are heading too.


McCain: The Past, Obama: The Future
by KathyM on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:55:32 PM EST

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 4)

Only Obama supporters see it as nepotism. Her careeer took off before she married Bill - she appointed to the Watergate panel charged with drawing up the indictment of Richard Nixon. She was appointed to the Board of Legal Services based on the work she did on that panel, and for Jimmy Carter. She married Bill and theyv'e worked together, but since she has more experience than obama, it's not nepotism. Objectively speaking, she's the one with the superior experience and that experience is hers - not Bill's.

It never ceases to amaze me the number of ways that obama supporters think up to thwart voters. If the majority of Democrats want Hillary, that's as reasonable (perhaps more understandable to the world as well) as if the majority want Obama. Just because you don't Hillary as well, doesn't mean the votes for her are any less legitimate.

The Clintons are very highly regarded through out the world and particularly in Muslim nations where Bill is perceived as the first president who risked American lives on behalf of Muslim ones.  


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:01:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is funny (none / 0)

FYI, Bill Clinton was offered that job, turned it down and recommended his girl friend for it. This is the last thing you should bring up as support for your side.


by LibDem on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:05:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Way to win over women to your side (2.00 / 2)

Did she fulfill the job? Yes. Does she have an unfair advantage being the wife of a former president? Yes. Do I still prefer her? Absolutely.


by catfish1 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:11:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is funny (2.00 / 3)

LOL - Oh, I touched a sore spot. You must not have known about that. yes, Hillary's career took off before bill's. Like Bill, she was in the Who's Who in college students. She wrote a paper on children's rights that still one of the most frequented quoted legal briefs on the subject. She was appointed to the Board of The Children's Defense Fund. She was appointed to the Watergate Panel and she was appointed to the Board of Legal Services - all before she married Bill.

Too bad Obama doesn't have a resume anywhere near as substantive. Other than represent Rezko, he hasn't done much, has he?


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is funny (1.00 / 1)

Didn't she accuse a 10-year old child in Arkansas about lying about being raped when she was a public defender?


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:03:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is funny (none / 0)

She was appointed to the Board of The Children's Defense Fund.

After she failed her bar exam and was unable to join the Rose Law Firm as scheduled.

Listen, I know that Hillary accomplished things apart from Bill. The problem is that thousands of people in our country have similar levels of accomplishment. Of the things that Bill was uniquely gifted at -- like winning elections -- Hillary used Bill's ability to create her own political career. Alone, she simply isn't a talented enough politician to get where she's gotten -- which is why she's forced to continually exaggerate her role in the Clinton presidency. I think the CNN exit poll in New Hampshire said it all: When voters were asked whether they'd switch their vote to Bill Clinton were he in the race, 58% of Clinton voters said "yes," compared with 27% of Obama voters.  


by RP McMurphy on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:15:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 2)

no, nepotism did not get him where he is, but rezko helped a little. what about patriarchy running the show for so long? hillary is as qualified as obama. her last name should give everyone a sense of ease not despair. what didn't you like about the clinton era? peace or prosperity?


by tofriends on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:56:24 PM EST

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

Clinton was a fine president and worthy of my support and votes in 92 and 96. However I do not want to go back to that.

He was a fine above average president. I don't want more of that! I want something historic something amazing. A Kennedy or Roosevelt like mystique.

The Clintons are the simple comepent economic political wonks. I want something well with MORE. Something with excitement and a sense of heading into the unknown.

I am willing to take that chance.


by Cheebs on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:00:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

I too think Bill Clinton was a fine President. He would have been better if he had worked to elect a Democratic Congress. Ultimately, he did a fine job but by being so self-focused, did not accomplish all he could have.


by LibDem on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:02:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

what are you smoking?


by tofriends on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:03:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice Clean Air. And I Inhale. (none / 0)


by LibDem on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:06:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

what didn't you like peace or prosperity? what are you smoking?


by tofriends on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:05:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

I liked it, I just want MORE. Clinton was a simple easy satisfying president. But he wasn't a history changing important leader. He won't have endless books written about him. I want a president we'll be talking about for 100's of years.

Competent simple policy wonks just don't stand up to what an Obama, Kennedy, Roosevelt, Jefferson...etc represent.


by Cheebs on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:11:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 1)

well this is the generation of "SUPER SIZE IT"..i guess obama would make even ordering a big mac sound profound at the drive thru...


by tofriends on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:13:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

No, this is the office of the presidency.

The senate is where you go if you are a policy wonk who prefers the paper work and the complexities of bills and  positions.

I see the office of the presidency as a position meant to INSPIRE people meant to be seen as as a powerful visionary for the nations future.

Not the person who knows the most technicalities on one issue or another. Thats for the senate and congress.


by Cheebs on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:16:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 1)

inspiration takes leadership, obama is not a leader but a follower. he wants to be a copy of mlk and lincoln. they were humble and inspiring. obama comes across as ambitious and arrogant. i guess inspiration is too lofty a word to mean anything. what inspires me may not inspire you, so lets move away from such abstract ideas..


by tofriends on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:21:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

" I want a president we'll be talking about for 100's of years."

You mean like Bush, We'll be talking about him for 100's of years and it will not be pretty.


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:18:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton's "peace and prosperity" (none / 0)

How many countries were bombed by the U.S. military during Clinton's "peace and prosperity"?

Didn't the Clinton administration largely set-up the pins for the Iraq War?


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:16:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

FDR, Eleanor Roosevelt, Hillary Clinton (2.00 / 1)

I too would like something more than Bill Clinton. I want Hillary, who evokes both FDR and Eleanor, one of Hillary's heroes.


by catfish1 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:14:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FDR, Eleanor Roosevelt, Hillary Clinton (none / 0)

And Eleanor never tried to seek the white house. Your point?


by Cheebs on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:17:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She should have (2.00 / 1)

the best candidate should seek the office. Hillary is the best candidate.

Life is not fair.


by catfish1 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 1)

That's exactly how Republicans talked about George Bush. You do realize that Obama is as far from Roosevelt and JFK as imaginable, right? Both of them. Roosevelt was a state senator for three years and was then appointed to be Assistant Secretary of the Navy - a position which he served in until 1920. He then served as governor from 1928 through 1932. He had fourteen years, including four years as a state executive, before running for president. Kennedy served 6 years in the House and 7 year in the US senate. On top of that, he was a commander in  the military as well.

With Obama, you've got a guy who served part time in a state senate, and was in the US senate for two years before he announced. You're basically looking at a guy with a total of about 4 years full time experience in legislative office, and no executive or exposure to executive experience whatsoever. And before you through out RFK, remember that he had served as his brother's Attorney General - much more in keeping with Hillary's White House experience.

FDR and JFK had magic but they were also experienced and Obama has nowhere near the experience that they did - that is a fact. LBJ would never have gotten civil rights passed without all his years twisting arms in Congress and his intimate knowledge of what each senator and congressman needed for their state or district. He was up there wheeling and dealing non-stop.

Experience matters. Especially with what we have coming up to deal with. We need a president who knows foreign policy inside and out as well as economic issues. Obama has shown no real grasp or understanding of either. He hasn't traveled, and he hasn't involved himself with the subcommittee on Europe that he does chair. Clinton knew she'd have problems with the military so she got herself assigned to one of the military committees and worked her butt off on all relevant issues. That's one of the reasons she's got so much more military support than Obama - she's proved to them that she knows their issues.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:19:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

If Experience matters....how was Lincoln one of the nations best presidents?


by Cheebs on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:31:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 1)

LIncoln was an impressive guy, in terms of accomplishments, long before he became president. He became an attorney under onorous circumstances, and quickly became quite prosperous. He innovated defense techniques that are still being used today. He served four years in the illinois state senate, and became a leader in the Illinois State Whig party. There was a case he argued that wound up removing the major legal impediments to our nation's westward expansion - something about the rivers.  He was one of the founders of the Republican party. He did stuff. He had accomplishments to his name.

The same cannot be said of Obama. He was a community organizer for three years before he went to law school. He got out of law school, and did virtually nothing with his talent. He didn't win any major cases in illinois or in federal court. He didn't write any important briefs. He didn't establish any precedents. He did real estate law. He claims he was civil rights attorney, but can point to nothing of substance that he did. His big accomplishment in the US senate is making lobbyists stand up when they eat.

He's done virtually nothing. The only noteworthy accomplishment from this son of a Harvard graduate is getting appointed editor of the law Review - and that's pretty much it.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:42:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 1)

You forgot his biggest accomplishment. He went up against the Clinton machine and ran circles around them. No small accomplishment for an unknown before the race started.


by munodi on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:55:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 1)

The primary was always going to be the tougher battle for clinton. Someone was going to give her a real run for her money. And as Mario Cuomo endlessly points out, being able to campaign well has nothing to do with being able to govern well - case in point, George Bush. A man with whom Obama has a tremendous amount in common.

A Democratic president needs substance to be successful. Obama has never demonstrated an aptitude for accomplishment.  He doesn't get stuff done. In fact, he doesn't seem to do much with his gifts.

He went to private schools his whole life. His father is a Harvard graduate. His mother a PhD. His wife got herself into Princeton and then Harvard based on accomplishment - and neither have done anything of value since they graduated.

They do nothing. They lead nothing. No one, except Rezko, seemed to benefit from their endeavors - that's my point. You can't point to anything he's done that makes him stand out other than run a cult of personality campaign. That's it. And that does not a president make.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:03:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I love the smell of desperation (none / 0)

in the morning. And what makes a president is votes, and Obama has more of those along with more states won and more pledged delegates, oh and more money. So I would say he's a darn good leader as he has lead a coalition that is propelling him to victory.


by munodi on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:41:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I love the smell of desperation (2.00 / 1)

well with zillions of dollars he is essentially tied with clinton. i don't think this reflects well on him. he should have won decisively with so much $$$$$$$


by tofriends on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:52:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I love the smell of desperation (none / 0)

Essentially tied?  You are delusional and desperate. A popular vote lead of 800,000 is tied?


by munodi on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:40:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I love the smell of desperation (2.00 / 1)

And yet, he hasn't led anything. You can't name a single thing he's done other than run a successful campaign heavily subsidized by the media.

Now, if you want to elect another do nothing president, who just gets us in more trouble - he may be your guy. But he's shown no aptitude for problem solving. He hasn't done it.

I'm just pointing reality. Bush excited the right. That's whose footsteps you're marching in.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:00:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I love the smell of desperation (none / 0)

So the media subsidized Obama's campaign? That's rich. If Hillary can't get good press that's not Obama's fault. And here I thought the Clinton were masterful politicians.


by munodi on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:49:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I love the smell of desperation (none / 0)

Oh, so the press likes masterful politicians? Since when? They liked George Bush quite a lot. Is that your idea of a masterful politician? They also liked Ronald Reagan quite a bit even though he was senile and frequently who he was or where he was. Is that your idea of a masterful politician?

Since the press liking someone seems to indicate to you that the person is masterful, I"m starting to understand why you like Obama. You don't like politicians who are good at running the government effectively. You like presidents the press likes.

How sad for you.


by Little Otter on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 01:14:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

Lincoln served in the Illinois House of Representatives, not the Senate. He also served one term in the US House of Representatives.

http://sc94.ameslab.gov/TOUR/alincoln.ht ml

To be fair, I would say that one thing that Obama and Lincoln share is that they were both probably more famous as great orators than as anything else before they ran for president.


by freemansfarm on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:22:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

No, Lincoln was also regarded as a master attorney. He set precedents, innovated techniques. That ability would far outstrip his fame for oratory early on. Attorneys in New England wouldn't hear him speak but they would learn about the precedents and techniques he was developing.

The point of all of this is that Lincoln had real, substantial accomplishments that impacted the course of US history before he ran for the president. The same cannot be said of Obama who has, as far as I can tell, no accomplishments after Editor of the Law Review. That seems to be the last thing he got done somewhat honestly.


by Little Otter on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 01:18:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

Lincoln was certainly a more prominent attorney than Obama, but I think you are exagerrating a little bit. He practiced in Springfield, not in Boston, New York, Philadelphia or Washington. Most of his cases involved Illinois state law and did not set nationwide precedent.

In any event, Lincoln came to nationwide attention (outside the legal community) for the speeches he gave in the late 1850', such as his Cooper Union speech in New York City and his house divided speech in the Lincoln-Douglas debates.

And, you know, I'm a Hillary supporter too, but I think you overstate things when you say Obama has done nothing since his Harvard Law Review days. He did run that Operation Vote, he was an attorney, he was a lecturer at the U of C law school, he was a state senator, and he is US Senator. While I don't believe the hype about him, and think a lot of his so-called accomplishments are trumped up, I don't think it's fair to say what you say.


by freemansfarm on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 01:55:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

N is for Non sequitur (none / 0)

Non sequitur. Because an attribute is desirable does not mean its absense will always be fatal. Conversely,success in the absense of that attribute does not mean that the attribute is not desirable.

For example--statistics show that new drivers are more likely to get into car accidents than experienced drivers. Say a bad driving situation arises: the need to make a long trip on bad roads in a driving rainstorm at night. It is possible that a new driver might successfully negotiate this challenge, but his or her success in doing so would not negate the general rule that it would be preferable to have an experienced driver in such a situation.


by freemansfarm on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:10:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

And yet she couldn't even read the NIE report before voting for an immoral war. She's got blood on her hands that won't wash off and the rest of the world knows this. No country is going to want to help in Iraq if they have to deal with a person who helped create the mess in the first place.


by munodi on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:33:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 1)

then obama has blood on his hands for voting to fund this war!


by tofriends on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:35:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nice try (none / 0)

but he as well as Hillary were voting to support the troops. And this is the very issue that will sink Hillary. How can she run against McBush when they both supported the war?


by munodi on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:48:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice try (none / 0)

She didn't support the war. She supported disarmament. Most adults understand the difference. If you don't, that's your problem. But Hillary's evolution matches most Americans evolution on the subject so it isn't an issue. McCain, otoh, is out of sync with most Americans. That's how she runs against him. She's in far better shape than obama, that's for sure.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:01:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Nice try (none / 0)

but to follow your thinking, the money obama gave the troops in turn was used for killing...


by tofriends on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:06:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 1)

The NIE wouldn't have changed her vote. She opposed the war. She supported Hans blix in his request for the authorization so that he could finish disarming Hussein - I got no problem with that and I opposed from the beginning. bush was going to have his authorization either in October or in January with the new congress. The one in October carried the UN demands and that's why she voted for it. It was our only chance of stopping this war.

I think it was the moral decision. Other people disagree and that's fine but there is a big difference between supporting the war, and supporting the only possible road to disarmament.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:46:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

No one is buying that phoney argument. She knew it was a vote for war. And if she didn't then she's either an idiot or a liar.


by munodi on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:50:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

Stupid people don't buy it. Smart people who read books know that Blix very specifically stated that he needed the resolution  in order to finish disarming Hussein and disarming hussein was the only possible way to stop Bush. All of those things are facts of history. yes, Bush was determined to go to war. Yes, he was going to have his authorization. The only question is did the authorization have UN requirements or not. Hillary voted for disarmament and the UN. You, apparently, would prefer the version that would have passed in January without those things. You aren't in any position to cast moral aspersions.


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:05:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

N is for Not reading the responses (none / 0)

It has been pointed out a million times that Hillary was briefed, orally and in person, by the people who put together the written report, thereby obviating the need to read it.


by freemansfarm on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what's HRC's experience? (none / 0)

Seriously. What has she accomplished?


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:18:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What Patrirachy? (none / 0)

Obama's father left him when he was a child.

Did you know Patriarch meant father?


by LibDem on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:10:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What Patrirachy? (2.00 / 1)

male domination is what im referring to..


by tofriends on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:12:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Male domination is not the fault of (none / 0)

men. Women have always been the majority and as such chose to allow men to rule.


by munodi on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:36:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Take a history class. Pronto. (2.00 / 2)


by KevinCinNYC on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:02:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 1)

What I didn't like about the Clinton presidency was his lack of responce to Rwanda. 800,000 people were hacked to death and the Clintons did nothing. I don't want another president with innocent blood on their hands and Hillarys support of the immoral Iraq war leaves her with with scarlet finger tips.


by munodi on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:25:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 2)

the clintons regret this as well.  im curious, are you willing to give president bush credit for doing more for africa than any other president in recent memory?


by tofriends on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:34:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

When did I say Bush did more for Africa? And the Clintons regret for the massacre does not cleanse their hands, but in fact give you a preview of what they are likely to do the next time around.


by munodi on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

Bush did do more to help Africa than Clinton or any other recent president in memory though. Doesn't excuse all the horrible things he did, but Bush did more for Africa than Bush I, Clinton, Reagan, Carter...etc did.

But all horrible president's do at least one thing good. Nixon for example was strong (for that era) on the environment.


by Cheebs on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:59:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what has Bush done for Africa? (none / 0)

The robust UN/USA response in Sudan?


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:14:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

patriarchy? (none / 0)

The Dem Party should deny Obama the nomination b/c of patriarchy?


Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.
by Carl Nyberg on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:13:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 2)

Well, Hillary's career took off before Bill's did so you can't make the case that he groomed her. Maybe you've missed this, but we live in a republic where people get to vote for whom they want regardless of whom they are related to.

First the Obama camp doesn't want to count the votes of Democrats whom we'll need in November, and now they want to prevent people from running based on who they are related to. Is there no end to the number of ways the obama campaign will cook up to thwart the will of the people?


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:56:30 PM EST

So you honestly think Sen. Clinton is not using (none / 0)

her husband's connections? Or the money he has earned as ex-President? Don't see everything as an attack.

I am not speaking for the Obama campaign. I would say the same about the Kennedys.


by LibDem on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:00:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Everyone in politics has alliances. You (2.00 / 1)

don't get anywhere in politics without alliances.   Ambitious people attach themselves to people someone who can help them, and that's true in lots of professions, not just politics.   Why should Hillary Clinton be any different?  The fact that the powerful person she is allied with is her husband?   I'm not sure on what grounds you would call that a disqualifier.  You can learn a lot spending your entire life with someone.  People naturally assume that a wife couldn't possibly have had the influence, or have been mentored as well, as a vice president.  But in fact vice presidents historically have been marginalized and left out of important meetings and discussions.  Here's an example (Tom Lehrer, 1964):

Whatever became of Hubert?
Has anyone heard a thing?
Once he shone on his own,
Now he sits home alone,
And waits for the phone to ring.

Once a fiery liberal spirit,
Ah but now when he speaks,
He must clear it.
Second fiddle's a hard part, I know,
When they don't even give you a bow.

"We must protest this treatment, Hubert"
Says each newspaper reader.
As someone once remarked to Schubert,
"Take us to your lieder."

Whatever became of Hubert?
We miss you so tell us please,
Are you sad, are you cross?
Are you gathering moss,
As you wait for the boss to sneeze?

Does Lyndon, recalling when he was VP,
Say "I'll do unto you as they did unto me."
Do you dream about staging a coup?
Hubert what happened to you?


Reasonable people can disagree.
by mnicholson0220 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:12:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 1)

You do realize that she's supporting a revote in Michigan even though she might not win that one, don't you? Obama is the one who is opposed to counting all the votes, and is allowing action by the GOP Florida legislature to be used to disenfranchise Democratic voters. If he wins without counting their votes, we'll lose Florida for a generation. You do understand that, right?

Why is protecting a lousy DNC ruling more important to democrats than electing a candidate who is supported by the majority of Democrats? Why would you allow the florida GOP to impact who our nominee is?


by Little Otter on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:11:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Everyone thinks it no one speaks out aloud (none / 0)

Because you will be called sexist. But I feel the same about the Kennedys. We are different from all these other old and new countries, we should give everyone the same chance.


by LibDem on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 08:57:33 PM EST

Well then Hillary should grab a (2.00 / 2)

couple of news cycles and make a speech about it.  If everyone IS thinking it, then it's just as important a matter as race and the air should be cleared.

We don't want everybody "hatin' on Hillary you know.   Obama, he ain't never been called a c***.  He ain't never had to cross the street when a man of any race approached him at night.  He ain't never been called a slut or criticized for his cleavage or his lack of cleavage or his fat ankles or his choice of clothing."  

I think it's way past time we aired this one and Hillary's the woman for the job.


Reasonable people can disagree.
by mnicholson0220 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:31:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In what sense did it "not work for (2.00 / 3)

the Kennedys" ???  

It would've worked fine if Bobby hadn't been killed.   People wanted it and it would've been fine.

I don't think your diary has any historical data or accuracy to it.  It's just one more attempt to cast your emotional revulsion to Clinton in a quasi-rational light.

Since I have you hear, maybe as a Clinton disliker you can explain to me what was so bad about Clinton.   We have about nine men who have served as president in the last half century.  Since you believe Clinton is so awful, you must believe that one of those guys -- or more -- was a lot better.

I'd like to know which former president YOU would bring back to save us from the evil of another Clinton presidency.


Reasonable people can disagree.
by mnicholson0220 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:04:48 PM EST

Re: In what sense did it "not work for (none / 0)

We have no reason to make a conclusion about Robert Kennedy because of his tragic death. I will grant that Ted Kennedy has been a great Senator. I do not begrudge Hillary Clinton her Senate seat. I voted for her twice for the Senate.

The Presidency is different.


by LibDem on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:08:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How so? (none / 0)


Reasonable people can disagree.
by mnicholson0220 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:28:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Basic US politcal history (2.00 / 3)

John Quincy Adams did not "quit" after his term as President. He was defeated by Andrew Jackson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Stat es_presidential_election,_1828

Also, I think it is a bit of a stretch to say that JQA was "haunted" by the shadow of his father, who was a "better man" than he was. JQA was a brilliant man, who spoke many languages at a young age and was something of a prodigy. He was in government from his 20's, as a diplomat, Senator, and Secretary of State. His father was a one-term president, just like he was. And was defeated by a man who had the popular touch, which he lacked, again, just like his father. Difficult times make "great men," and the Founding Fathers are no exception to this rule. But JQA lived in the shadow of no man, not even his father, who, if I had to choose, was not the "greater" man of the two.

You say that he an "honorable" Congressman after his presidency. But he was much more than that. He was a tireless anti-slavery crusader who was nearly thrown out of the House for his opposition to the "Gag rule," which prohibited any discussion of slavery. And he was the lawyer for the kidnapped and enslaved Africans in the famous "Amistad" case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Quincy _Adams#Secretary_of_State

Please, I beseech you, feel free to post all of the pro-Obama diaries that you want, but don't mangle US history in the process.


by freemansfarm on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 09:42:14 PM EST

Re: N is for Nepotism (2.00 / 1)

Clearly you do not have a clue what nepotism actually means.

It is one thing for a relative of an important person to be granted a position without having any competition from other qualified candidates--that hardly describes the process playing out now. Hillary's only advantage was name recognition, and of course that cut both ways. No one is handing her the nomination on a platter--the only way she can get it is by earning it.


by Alice in Florida on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 10:27:00 PM EST

Re: N is for Nepotism (none / 0)

This is one of the main reasons why I chose to not support Hillary Clinton for the Democratic Party nomination.  

Not nepotism, exactly, but more a distaste for the development of elite political families and an even more exclusive oligarchy.  In other words, it's tough enough in this country to make political change, and now you have to be a part of one of a few families?  

I like Hillary's policies.  I've grown more amenable  to her as a candidate as this process has continued.  And if she is the nominee, I'll support her.

But does the last name "Clinton" make someone more qualified for office?  If she chose to run, would Chelsea Clinton be given the same advantage?  

What about JEB?

Even if it's good people with good ideas, I generally believe it's a bad idea, and a troubling one.  


No way. No how. No McCain.
by freedom78 on Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 11:27:33 PM EST

So you want to end the Bush-Clinton era (none / 0)

by voting for Bush's and Cheney's cousin? How does the fact that Barack is related by blood to both fit into your dynasty theory?


by LatinoVoter on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 12:19:37 AM EST


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